
-------- TML Message #723 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 723
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 12:15:41 PST
From: (Scott Ellsworth) sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu
Subject: Twilight's peak


  Last year, I was running a rather neat MT game based very loosely on
the Twighlight's peak scenario.  It was rather neat, but since the end of the
year (and graduation) was heading our way, we decided to end it.  I tweaked
the ending a bit (lots!) so that the players were the only people aware
of the incoming Zho fleet.  (I forgot that there is no reason for the
Zhodani to attack in the shattered imperium environment.  Sigh)

  On the plus side, I gave them the ancient base, chock full of obedient
warriors.  Logic: the warriors really did not want to die, but could
not justify thier continued existence without an appropriate leader
caste & droyne society.  The players knew of the chirpers, and the
droyne warrior caste leader was a bit unhinged, so he decided that they would
cleanse the planet of pollutants, bring in many chirpers, a few droyne
from elsewhere, and start a new band of Ancients.  Obviously, this
is not the most sane plan, but the leader was not the most sane of creatures.

  The disadvantage was that the players had to pretend to fit into the droyne
caste system, or the leader would happily disintegrate them as "unfit."

  The players wished to 1. repel the Zhodani invasion
  2. prevent a similar one from happening again
  3. get heaps and piles of money
  4. duplicate the resources of the base far away for thier own use.

  Thier methods for 1 and 2 were a bit crude, but effective.  
(artificial plague)  In the time we had left, they did not figure out a way
to do #4, so they did not get around to trying 3.

  Here is a case where a squadron of Tigress class ships couldn't do a damn
thing to them, but simple desire for human contact would get them in the end.
After all, the base was very immobile, and the droyne did not understand its
construction.  If they wanted to see people again, they would have to leave
it.  They might not be allowed back, either.  I was pleased.

  Scott

  

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-------- TML Message #724 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 724
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 89 18:11:06 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Ships, weapons, and insanity



Thanks to all for their responses to my earlier comments.  I was inspired
while reading them by the remark someone made about their idea for fuel
consumption for spacecraft.  Ah yes, fighters do require more power for
their weapons.  I learned this the hard way.  Although GDW has kindly
provided us with ship design systems and a supplement or three of "common
[Dspacecraft," and although I inherited an additional system from a friend
(now ex-friend, but that's another story), I foolishly decided to tinker
together a "realistic" spacecraft design system.

Does the word "mistake" mean anything to you?

Actually, it has turned out pretty well.  My system probably has errors in
it that would send engineers into hysterics, but most people find it (a)
plausible and (b) roughly playable (with a little practice, you can design
just about anything you could ever want, and you get a lot of detail about
what is actually on your spacecraft).  (The reason it is plausible is that
I annnoyed all my engineer questions with stupid questions about how much
things mass, and what kind of thrust-weight ratios do you get with certain
kinds of engine, etc.  There are still errors, but a lot less than in a lot
of other systems; I guess I'll have to be satisfied with that.)

Incidently, for those of you who are curious, power requirements for normal
spacecraft (including life support, power for computers, sensors, etc.) is
about ten kilowatts per ton of spacecraft--actually, I use something called
Power Units, which are about ten kilowatts each; it makes it easier to handle
the bookkeeping--but the moment you go to armed spacecraft (except for
things like missiles which only require a little power to magnetically
accelerate them out of a launching catapult), your power requirements go
through the roof.  An armed spacecraft will probably end up using something
like forty or fifty times the power of an unarmed spacecraft of the same
general size.  This is one of the reasons why they are so expensive.

By the way, some good books on the subject of spacecraft design include
FUTURE MAGIC, by Robert Forward, and especially THE FUTURE OF FLIGHT by
Dean Ing (Ing is not only a good writer, but he provides a bibliography
of his technical sources, something which many so-called science writers
leave out).  One of his chapters even has a couple of "story ideas" that
might make good Traveller adventures.

Well, take care all.

     Mark

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-------- TML Message #725 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 725
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 89 11:20:09 EST
From: ("William B. Morrison") morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: My apologies to the group


I apologize to those on the list for not including subject lines
for issue #2 (and addendum) of the Star System Generation group.
I know the last think I want to see is a 1000+ line article when
I could have by-passed it after reading the header...

- --Bill Morrison

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-------- TML Message #726 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 726
Subject: ship deck plans
Date: Mon Nov 20 11:18:56 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)



Scott Ellsworth suggested the idea of ship deck plans.  I have often
considered the idea myself.  *NOTE: first, let's get build 1 out of the
way [ed]*  I think it's possible if it's done modularly.  That is, "here
is an x-type cabin"  add enough cabins, holds, whatever together.  Then
the main program interactively rearranges the parts into some form
recognizable as a starship.

Lot of work, though...
	Richard


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-------- TML Message #727 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 727
Subject: More Anarchy
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:00:56 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)



Someone asked me to say more about my subsector-cum-anarchy.

Well, its name is "the Talmegiian Confederation".  36 world
systems are in the confederation (they used to have 37, but 
the Imperium took one {another story}).  One system, Talmegiia,
is formally and vehemently NOT a member of the confederation.
Consequently, all important matters for the confederation get
settled here.

following is the brief write-up I gave this world when I generated
the subsector.

Talmegiia	Location D3 (local co-ordinates)
		C 446400 (13)  Trav's *

{brief explanation: when I did this subsector, I did not use hex
 notation for anything.  Thus, the tech level of (13).  I also
 created a Traveller's Aid Society rating for the world's overall
 hospitality and facilities (like the AAA does).  Talmegiia got
one star.}

Talmegiia has a long history of isolationist neutrality.  Consequently,
Tal volunteered to be the negotiating site for the creation of the 
confederation (it still refuses to become a member).  At one point
in the proceedings, a Churichian ambassador threatened mayhem on
the delegate from Omigosh for proposing the words "no central authority"
and "no taxes" be included in the preamble of the charter.  Rather
than let the right to the opinion of the delegate be violated, Tal
immediately closed the convention for the day.  A spectator loaned the 
two ambassadors swords.

After the fight, Churich left the conference and vowed revenge on
Talmegiia and Omigosh.  (Tal's doctors fixed up both parties.
Churich's ambassador thus lost face, etc.)


Traveller's Inn
OK Starport (class C)
some historical value
Talmege University (outstnading quality)

major trade: Tourism, education,  NA NI R


For Ref:  possible "good find" for artifacts
	  psi institute present

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of notes, if you're still reading.

Omigosh and Churich are neighboring worlds that have been at war
off and on for hundreds of years.  The development of the confederation
gave Churich the reasoning it wanted to petition BOTH the Zhodani
and the Imperium for membership.  This caused many wonderful hours
at the gaming table.

Eventually, the Imperium got Churich (and then declared it an
Amber Zone for "unfriendly activites").

Richard


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-------- TML Message #728 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 728
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 08:32 EST
From: B_MAHONE%UNHH.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: How big?


Ok, folks.  Here's a fun one:

One of my players, seeing a Frankiln Mint ad in TV guide for a USS Enterprise
model, asks how the "E" compares to common Traveller ships in terms of size.

The ad states that the "E" has a displacement weight of 190,000 tons.  Is that
the same unit of measure used for Traveller ships?  Anyone want to compare
Apples & Oranges?

- -Bob

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-------- TML Message #729 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 729
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 15:53:19 EST
From: ("Alvin M. Chan") ugachan@cs.buffalo.edu
Subject: Enterprise


With regards to the post about the ad for a Franklin Mint USS Enterprise

I'm not too sure about the exact tonnage of the Enterprise (any version)
But one day, I was perusing the model section of a Toys R Us store
and they had models for the Kirk-blinking lights era, the movie era, and
the new generation era.  They even had one kit with all three!  Now thats
a lot of plastic!  Of course, myself having a colander mind, and this shopping
trip being about a month or so ago, I dont remember any specs on the boxes.

I do remember that the scale of the new generation model was 1/2500.
and the model i guess would be about 2 feet long. maybe more, the box was
pretty hefty.

	- Alv

           Alvin M. Chan -- SUNY at Buffalo - Philosophy ==> Real Life
   +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  / Internet: ugachan@cs.buffalo.edu     /     Bitnet: acscamc@ubvms.bitnet /
 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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-------- TML Message #730 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 730
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 12:53:58 -0800
From: (Happiness is a Goal in Sight and a Path Underfoot 21-Nov-1989 1551) baranski@yoda.enet.dec.COM
Subject: ship sizes


RE: compare USS Enterprise to Traveller ships.

I believe the Space Shuttle have approximately the same displacement and
dimensions as a Scout Ship.

Jim Baranski

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-------- TML Message #731 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 731
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 00:08:11 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Ships, displacement



A few notes that might be helpful....

Displacement = mass in tons (since you are "displacing" that many tons in
water).  The space shuttle masses about 78 tons empty (it is supposed to
be about the size and weight as a DC-9) and can carry about 23 tons of 
cargo to LEO.  

By Traveller standards, and by modern Earth standards, the Enterprise is,
pardon my language, fucking huge.  A few modern Earth ships, to put it in
scale...

Broadsword (NATO) frigate  3,500 tons (4,400 full load)
Los Angeles class attack submarine 6,900 tons (dived)
Nimitz class aircraft carrier 91,000 tons (full load)

USS Enterprise is supposed to be 190,000 tons...that's two Nimitz class
carriers.  Since the Enterprise does not have to dedicate so much of its
internal space and mass to flight hangers, maintenance equipment, etc., 
it might be better to call her 4 Iowa class battlships (they're about
45,000 tons, as I recall).

By the way, using the 6,000-man crew of the Nimitz as a rough measure,
the Enterprise uses only about five percent of the man/kiloton ratio of
modern naval vessels.  Now that's what I call impressive automaintenance!

   Take care, all.

    Mark


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-------- TML Message #732 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 732
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 04:10:21 -0500
From: (Palmer Davis) davisp@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
Subject: USS NIMITZ (CVN-68) is much bigger than USS ENTERPRISE (NCC-1701).



>Displacement = mass in tons (since you are "displacing" that many tons in
>water).

Displacement is measured in tons of *water* for modern day naval vessels,
but in Traveller, displacement (High Guard "displacement" and MegaTraveller
UCP code) is measured in tons of *hydrogen* displaced.  The two scales are
*very* dissimilar, as water masses 9 times as much as hydrogen (MW H2 is
roughly 2 g/mol; MW H20 is about 18.1 g/mol)....

>Broadsword (NATO) frigate  3,500 tons (4,400 full load)

* 9 = 39,600 tons of hydrogen

>Los Angeles class attack submarine 6,900 tons (dived)

* 9 = 62,100 tons of hydrogen

>Nimitz class aircraft carrier 91,000 tons (full load)

* 9 = 819,000 tons of hydrogen

>USS Enterprise is supposed to be 190,000 tons...that's two Nimitz class
>carriers.  Since the Enterprise does not have to dedicate so much of its
>internal space and mass to flight hangers, maintenance equipment, etc., 
>it might be better to call her 4 Iowa class battlships (they're about
>45,000 tons, as I recall).

Well... it might be better still to call her three Los Angeles-class subs.
However, as you can see, ships today come out much heavier in Traveller 
"tons" than their size would seem to indicate.  The reason is that "classic" 
Traveller displacement calculations were based on pure volume rather than 
actual hydrogen displacement.  If you want an *accurate* comparison between,
say, the NIMITZ, the ENTERPRISE, and the AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING, take the
deck plans of all three ships and convert their respective volumes into
kiloliters.  One traditional Traveller "ton" in the sense you're used to 
thinking about it is the equivalent of 13.5 kiloliters.  

The ENTERPRISE is *NOT* twice the size of the NIMITZ.  If you want a very
simple argument for this, take the LOA, beam, and "draft" (extended from the
keel to the flight deck for the NIMITZ and from the bottom of the secondary
hull to the top of the warp engines for the ENTERPRISE) of both ships, then
consider that the NIMITZ is almost a monolithic block (configuration 4)
whereas the ENTERPRISE is a dispersed structure (configuration 7)....

- -- Palmer Davis --

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-------- TML Message #733 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 733
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 04:11:58 EST
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Displacement



	Well, actully Enterprise is not that big, I mean it's only 190,000 ton
in displacement. Most Battleship in MegaTraveller is at least equal or bigger.
Take Imperial Voroshilef Class Battleship for example, the displacement
is 200,000 ton. And yes, as Mark stated. The unit in MegaTraveller/Traveller
and modern Navy is the same.

				Mac

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-------- TML Message #734 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 734
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Twilight's peak revisited
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 10:21:22 BST


>   Last year, I was running a rather neat MT game based very loosely on
> the Twighlight's peak scenario.  It was rather neat, but since the end of the
> year (and graduation) was heading our way, we decided to end it.  I tweaked
> the ending a bit (lots!) so that the players were the only people aware
> of the incoming Zho fleet.  (I forgot that there is no reason for the
> Zhodani to attack in the shattered imperium environment.  Sigh)

On the contrary - there is no reason for the Zhodani NOT to attack the Spinward
Marches.  Who's going to stop them?  Throw out the "official" explanation.  As
I recall, it was something like "they no longer regard the Marches as a threat,
and are content to let it be".  Now, out of five Frontier Wars, how many did
the Zhodani start?  How many did the Imperium start?  5 - 0 to the Zhodani, if
my history books are reliable.  So who's threatening whom?  (I have my own
reason for the Zhodani not bothering the Marches.  It involves another Vargr
warlord, who's managed to combine TL 16 and population level 10, and isn't too
fond of Zhodani.)

>   The players wished to 1. repel the Zhodani invasion
>   2. prevent a similar one from happening again
>   3. get heaps and piles of money
>   4. duplicate the resources of the base far away for thier own use.
> 
>   Thier methods for 1 and 2 were a bit crude, but effective.  
> (artificial plague)  In the time we had left, they did not figure out a way
> to do #4, so they did not get around to trying 3.
> 
>   Here is a case where a squadron of Tigress class ships couldn't do a damn
> thing to them, but simple desire for human contact would get them in the end.

Maybe not.  But if the players started getting obnoxious, one Tigress class
with a chirper on board might.  The Imperials have figured out what's happening
and sent this chirper along, with instructions to pretend to be a leader.
Either there's a gun secretly pointed at him; or the rest of the squadron is
threatening his home village; or he's been promised loadsamoney or loads of
Ancient goodies in return.  So he gets on the communicators, and tells the
Droyne that he's a leader, the PC's are evil alien invaders, and as of now he
is taking charge.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

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-------- TML Message #735 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 735
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 10:53:16 EST
From: (Dan Corrin) dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: GaelCon Tournament


Jo Jaquinta has been nice enough to post the MegaTraveller tournament from
GaelCon '89. It is available from the ftp server as GaelConMT1.Z and
GaelConMT2.Z, the entire tournament is over 100K of text. Jo is thinking
about publishing this, so copyrights apply here, use it for your personal
use only, if you want permission for anything else contact Jo at:
	jaymin@maths.tcd.ie


	-Dan Corrin (FTP site coordinator).

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-------- End of TML Messages --------

